Peter George
@peterageorgegmail-com
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Hi Sarah,
So this confusion primarily arises from the fact that we generally don’t chant the canon in Matins.
Every saint in the Menaion, celebrated or not, has the following:
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Three troparia at Lord, I have cried
A full canon of eight odes (Odes 1-9, minus Ode 2)
A mid-ode kathisma between Odes 3 and 4.Therefore, a mid-ode kathisma is not a sign that a saint is celebrated. In current, Greek practice, the mid-ode kathismata are not chanted, since the canon is not chanted and these mid-ode kathismata are never used in the place for the kathismata before the Evlogetaria.
Does this make sense?
Look in Lesson 0. Document Hub has everything you need for the assignments. If you want an online copy of the Menaion, look under “Church Books” and there are a few options for you to look at.
The Menologion section of the Horologion provides the Dismissal Hymns and Kontakia of each day. While these can be found in the Menaion, they would be located in different places. Having them together in the Horologion makes it convenient for the Divine Liturgy, where they would be chanted together, and for the Hours, where they are read in close succession to each other.
I’d like to thank everyone for this robust discussion; I appreciate all of the views brought forth here.
First of all, Zornitsa, I appreciate you taking the time to look through the Bulgarian typika and giving us a look at a local Church that has recently (at least in Orthodox years) released a new Typikon. I agree that a primary goal of a typikon is to create a “life in common” for worshippers, which is a challenge in the United States where the experience is vastly different across jurisdictions (and sometimes within).
I also wanted to give attention to your response, Alexandra. I think you hit it on the head when you said that the purpose of typikon changes is to allow fuller participation versus “shortening” or “simplifying.” There is a subset of “traditional Orthodox people” who like to scoff at Violakis, but I think they miss the point of what he was attempting to do. You said it in a way I never thought of and I think you’re 100% right.
As to everyone else, I think the issues we’re identifying are:
1. Lack of Consistency Across Jurisdictions
2. The Mobile Society (most people have to travel significantly to attend an Orthodox church)
3. Changes being co-opted by “Modernism/Innovation” to make the Church more “convenient” to worshippers or potential worshippers.All of these are extremely relevant points and well taken. For me, a first step would be to get our typikon documents translated into English, without the filter of DCS or “service packets” so that we can all be on the same page of what the Typikon actually says, versus what we think it says. That is one of the major goals of this course!
Anyways, great discussion and please feel free to respond to my post to keep it going!
Also, is there a link to the powerpoint used in this week’s video lecture? I can’t seem to locate it. Thanks!
Let me see if I can post it. Sorry about that.
Hi Alexandra,
This will require a long answer, so bear with me.
The Liturgy of St. James was the primary liturgy in Jerusalem and still is the principle liturgy of non-Chalcedonian Syriac churches. The Monastery of St. Sabbas continued to use the Liturgy of St. James until the 12th century, when it was replaced by the Constantinopolitan liturgies of St. Basil and St. Chrysostom.
The religious split of Eastern churches after the 4th Ecumenical Council also became a political split when Muslim Arab invaders took these areas out of the Roman (Byzantine) Empire. As a result, liturgical unity with Constantinople became a way to demonstrate one’s Orthodoxy (and loyalty to the Roman empire). For this reason, celebrating the liturgies of St. Basil and St. Chrysostom became more attractive for Chalcedonian Orthodox Churches in areas where Chalecedonian and non-Chalecdonians lived side-by-side.
In terms of Liturgy of St. Basil (BAS) versus St. John Chrysostom (CHRYS), BAS was the principle liturgy in Constantinople. CHRYS was introduced later and, as it was shorter than BAS, was used during weekdays. BAS was the Sunday liturgy in Constantinople up until the 11th century. Originally BAS and CHRYS were actually quite different and distinctive from each other. Today, the only noticeable differences come during the Anaphora: the Eucharistic prayer of BAS is much longer and requires longer responses and the chanting of “In You All Creation Rejoices” versus “It is Truly Right”. This was a result of both rites borrowing from each other until both liturgies were essentially unable to be distinguished from each other.
Once both liturgies reached a point of similarity, CHRYS replaced BAS as the typical Sunday liturgy. However, since the period of Lent is generally marked by liturgical conservatism, BAS was retained as the Sunday liturgy during Great Lent only and on the feast of St. Basil itself. BAS also remains the liturgy used on the Eves of Christmas and Theophany, and sometimes on the feasts themselves (which probably deserves its own post).
Hope that makes sense!
Hi Alexandra,
A daily vespers is just simply a vespers service that falls on a weekday without a feasted saint. They are certainly more simple and “O Gladsome Light” being read is definitely a part of that. There is no entrance and “Vouchsafe” is read immediately following “O Gladsome Light.” Generally, a daily vespers is chanted more quickly.
However a daily vespers is different than a Small Vespers. A Small Vespers is the vespers service specifically served before a Vigil and can only be celebrated in conjunction with Great Vespers.
This basically solves a scheduling problem in monasteries. Vespers is usually done at 3pm, followed by dinner, then Compline. But, what if there is a Vigil? The Vigil is usually served with Compline, which would mean the 3pm time slot would be empty. This is filled by the “Small Vespers.” After the “Small Vespers” the monastics will eat, then go into Compline and begin the vigil proper.
Hope this makes sense!
Updated in the Forum! Thank you.
Hi, after viewing the lectures for lesson 2, we are directed to “Answer the discussion questions (two total) in the discussion forum.” I can’t find them, though. Could you please direct me to that homework?
Certainly!
GOA DCS (AGES): https://digitalchantstand.goarch.org/goa/dcs/dcs.html
Antiochian: https://www.antiochian.org/liturgicday
Hi Natalia,
Yes – Great Feasts tend to have four verses. There is a reason for this and it is a good example of liturgical archaeology.
The ancient order for antiphons is as follows:
Troparion (3x)
Troparion (4x) with a verse before each
Glory; Troparion
Both Now; Troparion
Troparion one final time with no verse.If this looks familiar, it is because this is the order we follow during Bright Week and on the day of Pascha itself at the beginning of Vespers, Matins and Divine Liturgy.
As time went on, this practice evolved into two different practices:
Either, Troparion (3x) (Such as the end of Vespers and the beginning of Matins on Great Feasts)
Or, Troparion with 4 Antiphons (Such as in the Divine Liturgy).When Antiphons became more popular and started replacing the Typika, three verses were picked instead of four. This practice has been (rightly, in my opinion) criticized by Fr. Konstantinos Papagiannis and he has proposed alternative antiphons that are all sets of four.
